Read the following statements; if you are a Christian, check those that you believe; if you are not check what you think a present day Christian believes.
1. ___ It’s okay to keep a concubine.
2. ___ It’s okay to abandon a woman you love and with whom you have a child for the sake of your career.
3. ___ It’s okay to go see horror movies and be thrilled with them.
4. ___ It’s appropriate to weep for your parents when they die, even if you are sure they are going to heaven.
5. ___ God is completely spiritual and entirely lacks human form.
6. ___ One of the best ways to live as a Christian is to renounce sex altogether and become fully chaste.
7. ___ A Christian thinks about the condition of his or her soul every day, nearly every minute of every day.
8. ___ In the end time, our physical bodies will be resurrected and turned by Jesus into an incorruptible substance.
Here's a cheesy portrait of Augustine. I take it that he's a model Christian: handsome, male, serious, concerned about his soul...
18 comments:
That's interesting and sad for me...I finally can understand something you wrote and here I sit with two Master's degrees and this was written for Freshman! I will be interested to see Augustine's answers. And by the way, I don't think I've ever seen a picture of him before. I always though of him as a stooped over little old man in a monkish kind of robe...wonder how I got that idea? I don't think anyone ever taught me that, I just assumed that since he was an early church father that he was old. Learn something new every day, And don't worry...We are praying for you!
No one has any idea what Augustine looked like, but there are plenty of representations of him. It's interesting to put them side by side. What you see is different visions of the Christian theologian and saint. Usually, they are more or less as you say: old (wise) and in a monkish robe (withdrawn from worldly affairs).
You avoided giving your answers. I think I can figure out _most of them_, but there are a couple that I'm curious how you'd answer.
Also, thanks for the call. Between picking up our new car and working out the insurance for it and reading Augustine and Aquinas, I ran out time to get back to you. But we'll chat soon, I hope.
OK, here are my answers:
1. NO
2. NO
3. ? But I wouldn't go.
4. Yes because I'll miss them.
5. NO - He came to walk on earth as a human in Jesus once already.
6. NO - God created sex as a beautiful, wonderful part of marital intimacy.
7. NO - I rely on God's grace. But I try to live every day as if it were my last giving Him the honor and glory and praise.
8. I don't know and I don't care as long as I am in His presence.
from laura, regarding #2:
did augustine really 'love' the woman?
just curious.
He reports being so. Who knows if he is sincere? We might take his willingness to leave her as evidence of his insincerity, but then it is (apparently) characteristic of Augustine to take radical steps without murmuring.
Laura,
I doesn't matter if he really loved her or not...he made a commitment to her AND he had a child with her for whom he is responsible. A man with integrity would honor his commitment and learn to "fall in love" with her all over again unless there is some circumstance that prevents this love and trust from ever developing again (unfaithfulness, addiction to porn, alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc., physical abuse, etc,). Did Augistine in fact do this?
i'm not sure whether or not they had porn in the late 4th century.
Good avoidance of my question.
Setting aside the issues your question raises (such as whether emotion is responsive to the will). Let's say God called him to leave her. Wouldn't that be permissible on your view?
God would not call a man to do something that is contrary to His will.
P.S. When are we going to get the answers to the questions that you think are right?
John: Let's say God called him to leave her. Wouldn't that be permissible on your view?
Mom: God would not call a man to do something that is contrary to His will.
Laura: If God called him to leave, then it wouldn't be contrary to his will, would it?
Or, are the things that God does and/or does not will set in stone? Is it set in stone that God will never call someone to leave his concubine and child?
It seems like you are saying that if there is a rupture big enough to stifle the regrowth of trust, then a split is ok (or perhaps necessary for the well-being of one or both of the parties?).
On the other hand, it doesn't seem like addiction to gambling, porn or any of the other things are really good & absolute reasons for one person to leave the other. A great Biblical example is Hosea. He marries a prostitute who constantly leaves him to go back and make money on the street. Her infidelity is not enough of a reason for Hosea to leave her. I guess God called him to stick with her even though he probably would've been a lot more emotionally healthy had he gone his merry way.
I think that even though God gave some clues (through the ten commandments and what not) about how life in a community should be organized, these rules are not hard and fast for divining his will.
And a response to something else that John wrote:
John:We might take his willingness to leave her as evidence of his insincerity, but then it is (apparently) characteristic of Augustine to take radical steps without murmuring.
Laura: Right, his leaving could be evidence of the insincerity of his feelings towards her. Or, it could be that God's call out-weighed the earthly committment he had made to the woman. (Who knows? I haven't read enough of The Confessions to construct a good psychological portrait of Augustine).
If you teach this course again, maybe Fear & Trembling wouldn't be a bad idea.
The answers Augustine would give are:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No
4. No
5. Yes
6. Yes
7. Yes
8. Yes
Bear in mind that Augustine's theology was in large part responsible for the philosophical identity of the Church for nearly the next millenium. Further, Protestants saw themselves as returning to an Augustinian theology.
"But when you suddenly command us to do something strange and unforseen, even if you had previously forbidden it, none can doubt that the command must be obeyed, even though, for the time being, you may conceal the reason for it and it may conflict with the established rule of custom in some forms of society; for no society is right and good unless it obeys you." Augustine, Confessions, III, 9
Wow, Augustine and I certainly have different ideas about the answers to those questions.
Laura - the question didn't say concubine but wife. There is a difference. You are right about the example of Hosea. He was indeed a great example of forgiveness and acceptance to us all. I believe to show us how much God loves us and how He will take us back time after time. God did however give us an out to a bad marriage in the New Testament. I used to think that the ONLY scriptural reason for divorce was adultery; however, the more I have studied the more I believe that there are other exceptions that God allows - as in any breaking of the covenant of marriage. But I do not believe that God would call a man to leave his family to better his career.
Regardless of this conversation, I love you both and am praying for you!
oh, great one, mom. so it's ok to leave the mother of your child if you're not married to her?
it is kind of making me chuckle that you said that, even though i seriously doubt that that's what you meant.
Well, we know that Peter was married and it looks like he might have left his wife behind to follow Jesus around for a while. I don't think we can infer that he left her all together, but his "vocation" sure got in the way of a "traditional american marriage".
-allen
I think phrases like "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."
and
"Sell your possessions and give the money to the poor"
are tough phrases that we have found ways to justify. But they should also be warnings to us that following Jesus may conflict with our cultural norms.
You have an intresting blog. I just wanted to let you know they did have porn in the 4rth century. Of course it was in a different form, but, in ancient Egypt, for example, in many tombs, caves etc. there are pornographic drawings. There are several depicting Queen Hatshepsut with her chief architect. Anyway there's a random bit of history for the day.
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